James and Claire, I am so excited to have you here and to talk about something that we’ve never talked about on this show, which is relationships and really relationships at midlife and all.

Full disclosure, I met my husband at 52. And so I get a lot of friends going, how did you find him? How did that happen? So, and I know that you, um, how old were you guys when you met each other?

Oh my goodness. I was in my

late forties, I think.

Eight years ago and I was in my, um, No, so I was in my late thirties, my late thirties.

Okay.

A little chicken. You are a spring chicken. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you and I met eight years ago too, and so, and now we’re working together. So I’d love to hear about how you guys met. And now you’re ending up working together. So we definitely need to talk a little bit about working with your spouses and how that works.

The first fun juicy part is how the heck did you guys meet?

Uh, so we met in Ibiza in Spain, um, probably around 2011 for the first time. And James was married and I was married and we all had the same friendship group. And I was at, James was running retreats over there, like wellness. And I was doing a lot of coaching, so I was going over there and working for some of the retreat companies over there.

And I saw his blue eyes across the room, and I thought, oh he’s married, and I’m married, damn it! So, um, it transpired that a couple of years after that, I found out that James marriage had broken up, and my marriage had broken up. In exactly the same time, and I popped over, I had mutual friends, so I popped over to Ibiza and they said, James, James wants to see you.

James wants to like take you out on a date. And I was like, that’s really inappropriate. Why? Why are you doing that? But then I bumped into you in a bar and it kind of went from there.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I met my husband on match. So,

so

you’ve been in the wellness space doing wellness retreats, James, and you’ve been coaching and now you’ve put together this business, which I was like, this is intriguing because it’s so needed.

And I don’t see anyone doing it where you’re helping people navigate midlife. And so, did you, how soon after getting together did you start working together?

It was pretty much straight away, so, uh, obviously Claire was living in London, I was in Ibiza, and we’re like, we don’t want a long distance relationship, so Claire came over and started working in, in my retreat company, um, which I think was very brave of her to do, but then after a while we kind of figured out, like, how to make it more equitable, and then we launched the Midlife, Midlife Mentors, which was a joint thing between us.

It, we thought it was so needed because it really came from our own experience. So many of our clients come on the retreats were kind of 35 plus, and we were seeing lots of similar things present, but more than that, it was our time of life. Like I was in my late forties. So many of our friends were like, Oh, you know, this is it.

It’s the beginning of the end. You just have to put up with low energy levels, expanding waistline. That that’s it. It’s like, no, it doesn’t have to be this way. It really doesn’t. So, We started a podcast, first of all, just talking about, you know, what you could be doing for yourself physically, emotionally, psychologically, and it grew from there.

Um, when COVID hit, obviously we couldn’t run retreats anymore. And we’d always been saying, Oh, we should probably do more of this online, online stuff. So we’re like, okay, what about if we designed a program specifically for midlifers that looked at things like understanding your hormones and how to work with them?

Your, your emotional resilience, you know, how to build a positive mindset. Cause we know that at midlife, you know, there’s psychological pressures, um, an evidence backed way to move and, you know, a sensible nutrition approach. We put all that together. Ran a little beta, was really successful, people got great results, loved it, refined it, and we just, we just kind of went from there, really.

You said that you had people coming to your retreats in their 40s and 50s, and that they were having the same issues and struggles. And so what are, like, what do you see as these core issues and struggles that seem to happen at midlife?

I think the core ones are, from the physical perspective, it’s I’m piling on the pounds and I am doing exactly what I used to do.

I’m doing exactly what I used to do and nothing’s working and I’m doing loads more cardio to try and make this work. I’m doing all the diets and nothing’s working. So that’s one of the things and You know, that’s super frustrating for people and especially with the hormone changes for women. We know scientifically that, um, our fat distributes actually when we go through the perimenopause and menopause.

It goes from our hips and thighs and starts moving around to our belly.

So women, my mom called it shifting sand. She said, you Yeah, your gut goes to your gut. .

Exactly. So they’re like, what’s, what’s this? What’s this pouch? And honestly like the other thing is just the enormous amount of pressure that we are on with, you know, young children or teenage children, aging parents, we’re juggling societal stuff that’s going on, which is very stressful and very fear based.

We’re trying to climb the career ladder still, we’re worried about money, cost of living, but I think really a lot of the time it’s that awful, awful saying, that midlife crisis, um, that we like to rename as a midlife opportunity or midlife reinvention, but people reach that point and they’re asking themselves really big questions.

I’ve been waiting for this time when I was going to be happy, when I got to this moment in time. And we’ve been having that in our entire life. You know, when you go to secondary school, you get these grades, you’re going to be happy. And then when you get your job, you’ll be happy. So, we’ve been constantly waiting for that, that switch of happiness to go on.

And we’re realising It doesn’t actually exist. This is really, it’s, it is an inside job and, but it’s very, very sobering when people get to that point and they’re like, I’ve spent all this time gathering stuff around me, all the material possessions, but also all the stuff for my ego. And I’m not, I’m not fulfilled.

I’m not sustained by it. So that was, that’s a really big thing because that can feel, People don’t want to look at that. They’re like, Oh, I can do the diet and I can do all the X, I can do that stuff. But that inner work can feel very, very overwhelming for people. And they don’t always want to look at it.

And yet we know I, and I fortunately found out about this research, like right before I was turning 60 and I went, Ooh, okay, I’m taking this on. And it was that people who are positive about aging live seven and a half years longer than people who don’t. And I’m like, all right, well, so this is just to choose, let’s choose to be excited about this.

And I think, honestly, we all know that. I had a great mentor who said, what are you pretending not to know? This whole naggy thing back here that you’re like, you know, didn’t do what you wanted to do. And you’re not really happy in your relationship. You’re not really happy in your work and you know it. So why not just pull the bandaid off on it?

What do you see, um, you know, in this time period in terms of relationships, and both romantic relationships, and then I’d love to talk friend relationships, because I think we also don’t talk about that, but just a romantic relationship where all of a sudden you’re looking, you know, you’re questioning what you want to do, and part of that might be questioning if you want to be with the person that you’ve been with all this time too.

So like, what happens with that?

Yeah, that’s a really good question. It’s something we see a lot of with clients, actually, because  I think there’s this kind of natural questioning. What do I want from life? Where do I want to go? Is this the person, you know, do I want to keep, carry on hitching my wagon to this person or not?

Well, I think the other thing that plays into that is obviously the hormonal changes that both men and women are undergoing at this time in life, you know. For women going through the perimenopause and menopause, men might have low testosterone. They can start to feel and experience changes, not just in their bodies, but in their psychology as well.

And they, you know, what we hear a lot is like, I felt like a stranger in my own body. And of course that can create distance if they’re not communicating about it. And the big one that no one talks about is obviously libido. Um, that’s obviously driven by our hormones. If they become mismatched, and again, they’re not communicating about that.

We know rejection is one of the most powerful human fears. So, so that can lead to like big schisms. I think if you’re in a romantic relationship, it’s really important to be brave enough to be vulnerable and explore with your partner about how you’re feeling, uh, on all levels. Cause that’s the way you actually bring yourselves closer.

And then you can make a fair assessment of whether, you know, this is someone I do want to continue down this path with, or maybe we go our own way, but you’ve at least had the conversations rather than, Having things happening in isolation to each of you and not really understanding what’s, what’s going on for yourself, let alone what’s going on for your partner, and then going in different directions.

Right. And I would assume because for women, you know, a lot of this is really starting to hit around mid forties and a little later. Men, nowadays it’s different because of all the stress, but it used to be It was the late fifties. So, you know, there is that mismatch there too. And for women, especially where you literally feel like a different person there for a while.

Um, and you know, and, and alongside that, Are some of those just physical changes too? And I hear it more because, you know, this show is more women and women will be what, you know, what can you do about my husband? Can you have your husband talk to my husband? Cause my, my husband went through like, he’s always been athletic and fit, but when we met, you know, he went through a total body transformation.

Um, but what do you do about that side of it too? Because I, and I’ll never forget it, I remember working with one client, a surgeon out in California. He said, Hey, will you, you know, I, I want you to come over to the house to train us, and I want you to fix my fat wife. And I thought, I think I, your fat wife should divorce you.

calling Fat wife. Oh goodness. No prize either. Dude’s like, oh my gosh.

I think, I think with this. I really feel like the whole body changes thing. When we have one side of a couple come and join our program, it’s a really beautiful thing. Sometimes they’ll get so into it that their husband, it’s normally the women that start with us, because us women are kind of like, I’m unhappy, let me do something about it.

And then they bring their, their husbands or their partners on board. That’s a really beautiful thing. Um, I love to, we love to see that, but on the flip side of that, whether it’s the man or the woman, sometimes if you’re unhappy with your physical self, it’s in your power and your responsibility to change that.

And People start on that path and they have that transformation and sometimes their partner and their friends and their family don’t want to see that because it really highlights to them what they’re not having the courage to change in themselves. So I think sometimes that’s, that’s a really sad thing to see but it does happen quite frequently is when You take back your power and you start to change.

You’ve got to be really, really careful that those people around you don’t want to, aren’t trying to drag you down and take you off course and not try and try not to take it personally. Of course, it’s very easy to, it’s easier said than done not to take it personally, but actually it’s not about you.

It’s more about the version they have of you in their heads, whatever that looks like. And the fact that you’re changing and transforming. Really starts to shift what they need to look at you like but also themselves like who am I in relation to this new version of the person that I’m in a relationship with so that can be a massive challenge as well.

Don’t

you think part of that because I’ll tell you two stories quickly where that happened when I was working with husbands. One, I was working with the husband and wife. One, I was working with the wife. Um, and And with the one with the wife, we were working together. She was getting super fit and super strong.

And her husband insisted she quit because he was so threatened. And then a similar thing happened with the husband and wife, where the husband was really working on his heart health. He had some blood. Bad cardiovascular markers. You know, so we had him on a very specific dietary approach and exercise and she was bringing him pie in bed.

Yeah.

And I’m like, what, what’s up with this? And so you’ll start to look and go, is part of this, that fear that this person’s going to get, you know, physically more attractive, healthier, stronger, and leave them.

Yeah. Yeah, it’s sabotage, isn’t it?

Yeah.

It’s, you know, and here’s the thing. It might not be, they might not be conscious that they are doing that.

It might not even cut it, but they’re doing it nonetheless. And it’s kind of sabotage. And like you said, it is, it’s absolutely threatened. And what’s our basic human It’s to be wanted, it’s to feel, it’s not to be left, it’s not to be rejected. So if they think further down the line, oh it’s just a piece of pie, but actually, what’s that, what belief is that covering up?

What fear is that covering up? What are you doing there?

So how would you help them? Because literally, I don’t think either of those people really doing it to be mean. I don’t think they had any clue why they were doing it, right? How would you coach someone through that? Like if, if the person can’t stop, does this person have to leave or what, what do you do in a situation like that?

I

think, um, if it’s, you know, if you’re, if you’re coaching the person that’s making the, making the changes and their partner’s not being supportive, I think, You know, you can coach the person you’re coaching to actually have the conversation with the partner about, look, you know, this is what I’m trying to achieve.

Um, I still, I still love you. It’s not going to change that. I just want to be a better version of myself for me, for you and for the relationship. But here are some of the behaviors I’m observing that are kind of derailing me a bit and not being helpful to where I want to go. I’d really appreciate it if you’d come on side.

It’s a hard conversation to have, but I think it’s about getting the person, as Claire said, they might not be consciously aware that they’re sabotaging. It might be the subconscious is driving that, but once they become aware of it, and if they’re willing to, you know, take a hard look at it, go, okay, yeah, I can see what I’m, what I’m doing there.

And if they’re even willing to look deeper and go, what is the fear there? Because once we confront our fears, we can deal with them. But if we just keep pushing them away, they’re going to keep nagging at us. So it’s about really confronting what that deep fear is, which is probably, You know, that partner’s going to leave me if they suddenly become, you know, ripped and great and, you know, feel brilliant about themselves and I’m still sat on the couch eating pie.

Well, speaking of sitting on the couch eating pie, what would you do? Then that’s the other side. Not only is the person who’s trying to make that progress feeling kind of sabotaged and held back, but they’re also frustrated because, you know, I feel so fortunate that my husband, Likes to eat the way I eat.

We, you know, we both are very focused on getting good sleep, on exercising, all of that stuff. So he’ll always, he’s always a yes. You know, let’s go like, let’s, let’s not take a, we were in Miami going to dinner with a bunch of people down in South Beach. And it was like a two to three mile walk back to the hotel at 11 o’clock at night.

And he was, yes. You know, I was like, why would we take a, I don’t want an Uber. Let’s walk it. Right. Take advantage of this. Um, So, what do you do with the people who now are, have such different lifestyle goals and the way they want to live their, their life? How, is, is it possible to navigate that or is it, you know, is that one of those ones that you would have to say you need to split?

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it, it depends how you communicate with that person, I think, as well. It’s, I don’t think it’s impossible. I think it’s very hard for you to, That’s the thing, isn’t it? If your values change, and we always say at Midlife, our values really do deeply change from our 20s and our 30s, even our early 40s, our values start to change.

And if they’re misaligned, That can cause a real, a real problem. What I would say is having a bit of patience with that person. It’s not a definite no, I’ve got to go. Having a bit of patience for that person to catch up with you, to catch up with that new version of you. It’s a big change. That’s a huge change actually for a lot of people.

Not only to the partner, but to that person as well. So just give it a bit of time, have a bit of patience. And a lot of the time, you know, you would be surprised just by osmosis. That person might, we don’t know, but might start picking up some of your healthy behaviors and your healthy thought patterns.

Um, and I, and again, I’ve seen that happen so many times with mainly female clients and they’ve had exactly that situation. They’re like, he’s, he’s just, we don’t like the same things anymore. I feel like we’re going in completely opposite directions and I’m like, just be patient, keep communicating, stay in your own lane, stay on focus, Don’t nag.

Don’t nag. This is the thing. Don’t nag. Don’t nag. Don’t nag. You’ve, you, your expression of yourself and what you’re doing is enough. You don’t need to, if you keep pummeling home what they should and shouldn’t be doing, they’re going to reject what you’re doing even more. So just take it patiently, be calm with them, and then by osmosis, they might start picking up some of your healthy behaviours, and you just don’t know that.

And if they don’t, if they don’t and it’s been like a little bit of time, then reconsider the situation.

You said, um, midlife, your values change from your 20s, 30s, 40s. What, what do you see those, like the big shifts in?

Hmm. I think, um, the biggest one I, I summarize it is, you know, when we’re young, we, we play to win, but as we get old, we play not to lose.

We start to think about all the things that we could lose. Opportunity cost of, of doing things become more risk averse. And then that manifests in a kind of more insular thinking. We move away from a growth mindset. So I think. That’s one thing to really recognize and we’re not to like going like go out and take crazy risks But just think you know where am I limiting myself currently that the younger me wouldn’t of.

I think that’s a really big one

Yeah, and I think the values piece I think it’s quite a beautiful thing that happens if we allow it. So if we’re not fighting against it, a quite beautiful thing happens. And I actually, I’ve been going through a huge transition in the last 18 months where my values have changed enormously.

I feel like someone’s redesigned my DNA in a way. But like the, the values of my life have changed so much from wanting, it sounds terrible, I don’t mean it quite in this way, but kind of take, take, take, you know, what can I get? What can I get? What can I get from, you know, really, uh, striving for more, more, more, and actually moving more into a place of, um, simplicity, actually of allowing myself, instead of just being a human doing, I’ve allowed myself to become more of a human being.

And actually give more from a place of, I think, authenticity, vulnerability. So my value, you know, our values do tend to change from that kind of take take. Striving, what can I get, into more of, okay, what really fulfills me? What is the true, truly important for my life? Where do I, where do I see it? What can I give back?

So that’s a, that’s a big shift.

I was going to say, I think the big thing, um, Jung talked about the exhaustion of the ego by the time we reached midlife, in terms of like, you know, we stopped doing the things we think we should be doing, and it’s all about, you know, how we want to appear. It’s like. Oh, actually, what do I, what do I want to do?

It’s finding that inner peace more. So I think that’s how our values shift.

I love that. I will tell you that I went through what I would call a lot of work on ego death in my fifties. Um, you know, a lot of it, like, and Tim and I were both working on things and was he’s working on him. It’s like sunshine, butterflies, puppy dogs.

And I’m over here going, you know, screaming at my ego.

It’s

like, wow. Um, But it is, all of a sudden you do make that shift. And, uh, that is just, it’s like the greatest shift ever. It’s just too bad it couldn’t have started done, been done earlier, where you just kind of go, Oh, those things that were so important are now they don’t even matter.

It’s true,

it’s wild. I wish, I tell people, I tell women this, I go like, for me it happened right at 50. It was like a switch got flipped and I, I figure it’s a 50 thing. I just was like, why couldn’t we flip that switch at 30 or 40 where you I just don’t care if someone says something, which is good since we’re online, something mean about us, because, you know, if you’re going to put podcasts out or you’re going to be social, you’re, you’re like a target for just unhappy troll humans.

Totally.

Totally. I think it’s a, it’s a really, um, it’s a big relief when actually you’re like, I just don’t give a, What other people are going to say it’s about, it’s really about those relationships. I have those special relationships. It’s about really doing what I think I’m meant to do whilst I’m here.

The ego death is a, is a really good phrase to explain it.

Yeah. I always think like a nice way to look at midlife transition is to think of it as like a reverse adolescence. You know, when you’re a child, you’re really kind of carefree. You do what you want, you pursue your passions, then you become an adolescent, your hormones are bubbling over.

Something that’s like, oh, what does everyone think of me? I want to fit in with the crowd, you know, and then you hit midlife. It’s something like those hormones are bubbling again, but it’s kind of like, oh, I don’t really care what anyone else thinks now.

That’s very funny. Yeah, reverse. I had someone called it something like your third You know, or your second adolescence, but I, I think reverse adolescence is a way better way to describe it.

I literally remember being in high school and spending an hour every morning to get my hair to look perfect. Like Farrah Fawcett and I’m like going and now I walk out of the house. I go. I did not even brush my hair I ran my hands through it. I was like, you know, I realized I was Know nothing. I had no didn’t even have sunscreen on.

I’m like, what am I doing? Like Taking it too far. So beyond just the couples, um, you know, because your values are changing, you know, you talked about how to navigate a romantic relationship. I’d like to talk a little bit more on the libido side, but what about friend relationships? Because I noticed that the friends that I have now are very different 20s.

Yes,

well I, I have had this quite, quite a lot actually of, of falling away of certain friendships that I’ve, I’ve had for a while that actually didn’t serve me, didn’t maybe serve that other person either. So kind of mutually they’ve just I think I have a very new set, like a lovely set of new friendships that are all very, very different.

And all give, all give me something very different that my friendships before didn’t. But I do, I do think it’s aligned with that when we step into I suppose, really acknowledging who we are, um, our boundaries, um, our level of kind of putting people on pedestals, perhaps, or, you know, what we’re actually getting from friendships.

I think that happens a lot around midlife, where some of those ones just naturally might fall away, or there’s something that might happen that breaks up those friendships. I’ve had that quite a lot in recent years and when it comes to guys, what we see, us midlife women, we might gather new friendships around us.

And they’re quite beautiful and empowering and lovely. For men, what we seem to find is that actually their friendships drop away and they start to isolate themselves quite a lot. So midlife men here in the UK, um, male suicide is like the highest cohort of middle is midlife men. Wow. Like looking into that, you can kind of understand why, because they’re getting towards their, the end of their career path, which absolutely is their self identity.

You know, their career is so determined by their career. I would say more so than us women, because we don’t have children, we’ve got those other friendships, we’ve got other stuff going on. So, when you take that away from them They feel very isolated, they feel very alone, and their friendship groups were those people at work.

It was the lads at work. So, I think we have to be very, very careful with midlife men, encouraging them really, to keep connected. And in community with their fellow midlife men. I think it’s very, very important. I

am so glad you brought this up. I will tell you having, you know, being married to a midlife man, what I’ve noticed is in, and I’d love you to comment on this, James, you guys do relationships very different than we do.

And, You know, and, and I was, as you were talking about this, Claire, I was thinking, well, it’s part of it because they’re not doing now their sports anymore. And, you know, so you have a guy who is maybe winding down on his career. He’s not doing sports like he used to. Where would he meet guy friends?

Yeah.

Um, it’s a massive issue. Like Claire said, like so many men, their identity gets wrapped up in their, in their career. Or maybe they’re sports as well. And then as that tails away, they’re like, well, who am I? And their, their social world becomes smaller and smaller because we know from all the research, men are less good than women at maintaining social networks.

Um, they reach out to their friends as often. They’re less likely to ask for help. So I think for midlife men, my message and why I’m banging home all the time is like, like keep expanding your network, you know, How would

they do that?

So for a hobby, you know, what, what lights you up? What’s, what’s a hobby?

Maybe it’s still is sports. Maybe it’s something else, you know, one of the beauties of social media, it’s got lots of negatives is that we can find groups of people with similarly aligned interests and see how we fit in. So we can start in a virtual space, but we can find people in real life as well. And then I think it’s important about not just the quantity of connections, but the quality of connection.

So where men have a problem as well is opening up to other men. It’s this whole thing of, you know, the, the stoic warrior. I will hold it all inside. I’ll be strong myself. You know what?

When do they get over that? I mean, that’s, it’s hard to

get over because we’re so conditioned to it, but the, especially

the British men,

the braver things,

I don’t think it’s just British, the

braver thing to do is actually be open and speak, speak to your friends.

Like, you know, Oh, this is how I’m feeling at the moment. This is what’s going on for me. And you’ll be surprised when you start that conversation. The other guy will be like, Oh, I’m so glad you said that. You know what? I thought I was the only one feeling this. So it’s about encouraging men to have those conversations.

And, uh, in the UK, we’ve, we’ve seen a growth of like more men’s mental health groups where guys can meet like, like around garden sheds and stuff or hobbies where they literally go and discuss like what’s going on in their lives and how they’re feeling and that’s having a really positive impact on people.

I think for men it’s about finding those connections and then having the courage to kind of open up and explore things. It’s not weakness to show your vulnerability, it’s a form of strength.

So someone’s been in a relationship for years and now they’re starting to make all these shifts. Um, you know, what are some of the things that they could do kind of to revive, like, let’s say they’ve gotten a total rut and their libido’s out the window, so that’s one thing, right?

And, And you also have a time where you’re starting to get freed up from some of your other responsibilities, so that might be a positive. But what would you say,  in terms of just the more intimate side of a relationship, how does, how does someone navigate that through menopause, especially with a woman feeling like, The least sexy human on the planet at some point, like, let’s be real, right?

Exactly. Um, well, listen, I think, I think that communication piece, I know we bang on about this all the time, but actually the fact that we are speaking more about this stuff, even on this podcast, the fact that we talk about it all the time on ours, um, the fact that there is more understanding, thank goodness, of the menopause, what’s going on and actually companies here in the UK.

are asking men like James who’s a menopause practitioner to go in and talk to men about the menopause. So there are, there are some great shifts that are happening to help people understand, help men understand, help women understand what’s going on for men and Corporate organizations here are quite open to that, but that communication even starting to even just say, you know, how was your day?

How often do we even allow five minutes maybe in the morning five at five minutes in the evening to look our partner in the eyes? Like we don’t even it’s a crazy thing but we don’t actually even take the time to look at our partners in the eyes and just say Here’s our five minutes. How was your day?

Give them the airspace to answer. Actually use your listening skills without thinking of what you want to say. Let them speak to you and then reply, you know, ask that when that person’s spoken, then say, and this is how my mind has gone. Like actually just sitting there, listening and communicating whilst looking in each other’s eyes.

That’s even really uncomfortable for certain people. Honestly, it’s craziness, isn’t it? The eyes are the windows to the soul and yet it’s almost like we, we want to hide ourselves even in our relationships, but even doing that can massively improve, you know, at the end of the day just sitting down for five minutes with a glass of wine or whatever and just saying how was your day and actually listening and responding and giving your full attention.

Not sitting there on your phone, not sitting there scrolling through social media with the TV on in the background. You’re undivided attention. That brings intimacy. Intimacy isn’t just about a physical act that brings actual spiritual intimacy back into your marriage. And also when it comes to sex, sex isn’t just about like intercourse either.

It’s about touch. So if that feels really uncomfortable for you right now, you know, start with that eye contact, start with that intimacy and then move a little bit towards, okay, we’re going to set this time aside. Um, We’re not gonna, we’re not gonna have intercourse, we’re just gonna touch, we’re just gonna feel, we’re just gonna see how that goes and, and see how You know, comfortable we feel taking it in certain direction.

Um, one of the other things I would say, and one of the things that we really are so honest and vulnerable about is James and I have been to marriage counseling and that has bought so, because we’ve worked together nonstop for eight years, we’ve had so many ups and downs, you know, outside our control. So many, you know, it’s, it was really, really important for us to invest.

You do, people do not invest enough in their. This is me coming from two divorces before James. So I know what it, you know, about that whole investing and not investing, but we need having, if you do work together, sometimes that completely takes over your life. We’ve never had a time where we weren’t working together and we were both like, there is a third entity.

And it’s called our relationship and we are not spending enough time prioritizing and focusing on it. As soon as we made that decision to even go to see someone, it already changed. Because we could see in each other that we were very, very willing. To investing in our marriage and that even bought a sense of intimacy and having that other person to ask us questions.

It was amazing. So there’s lots of things that we can do there. I’ve kind of, um, blurted lots of bits and pieces out there, but I do, I do

learning.

Tim and I work together too. We didn’t start that way. Um, and in a way it’s easier now that we’re working together because he had a corporate job and he worked about four hours a day and I, you know, I had two of my own companies and I worked about a hundred hours a day. Right. And, and, and I tried to explain this to him as we, when we first met, I was like, you know, when you have your own businesses, you’re always.

Thinking about it, like you’re never not thinking about it. And now that he’s on the same page as me, he like two in the morning, he’ll wake up with something. And I’m like, okay, I knew you were an entrepreneur. Also strikes me that whether you’re working together or not, you’re still working together because you have like the place you live together.

You probably have kids together. And especially once the pandemic hit, and we all ended up working, you know, I’ve always worked from home, but a lot of people now are working from home. Like all of that is, is. So, how do you have people navigate it? I know one of the things we’ve made a rule about is, and we stick to it about 80 percent of the time, is like, do not talk about business in bed.

Do not do it. You know, every once in a while it pops up, but, you know, what are some of those guidelines that we can put in place? Bring in.

Yeah, I think it’s, it’s about, about two things. I think the first one, as Claire said, is recognizing that a relationship isn’t two people. There’s the two people and there’s the relationship itself, and you have to put energy and investment into that.

So first of all, be honest, like, how much energy investment are you putting into the relationship itself? Um, and that could look like going to therapy, going to cancer, like keeping things fresh, arranging date nights. I’d say the other thing that you need to do is know your boundaries in your relationship.

So yeah, whether you’re running a business together, running a household, whatever. You know, negotiables? When are you having, is it like, you know, 6pm, then we’re off, we’re not going to talk about work, we’re not going to talk about the kids, this is our time. Is it that we’re not going to take our phones to the bedroom with us?

All these things are really, really important, and you can gently pick each other up on it when you’re going, oh, you know, it’s not about chastising the other person, but going, oh hey, you know, remember we were saying no phones in bed, do you want to put that away maybe? I think that Looking after a relationship as an entity in itself and having clear boundaries that you, you both respect are really key.

And also, one of the things that I learned with, with James is just to really acknowledge each other’s differences, actually. And, and I suppose that happens over time, but what I realise about James and myself, we’re very, very different. About how we decompress, like how we, how, how we need to decompress is very, very different.

I love to be on my own, but for long periods, for fairly long periods of time, I’ve just done like a 10 day retreat on my own completely. Like, I didn’t have anyone taking me through a retreat, I did a self guided retreat. And I wasn’t lonely, I absolutely had the most amazing time. That would be James’s idea of hell, absolute hell.

So actually understanding how, how we reconnect with, what’s your way, what’s James’s way of reconnecting with himself, what’s important. How does he, how does he like to do his downtime? How do I like to do my downtime? And I think at the beginning, because I felt really bad saying, Ta ta! I just, I wanna, I just wanna leave you for days on end.

I never, I didn’t say that right at the beginning of our relationship. It’s only been in the last few years. I felt really empowered to say that. So yeah, it’s about no really giving grace to the other person about how they manage their stress levels, how they need to decompress and all that kind of stuff.

Have you ever looked at Alison Armstrong’s work? No. She, she has a, it’s called PAX program celebrating Men Satisfying Women was like her signature course and they called it the, you know, Men 101. But one of the things she talked about in that course was that a man would come home from work. This was back when people actually left the house to go places to work.

But in those, in the old days, when that happened, the man would come back home and they had to have this transition time where, you know, they had to like do whatever flop on the couch, have a drink, do something. Whereas women would walk in the house and the house was the second job. They didn’t have any transition time and you know, there was no flopping on the couch.

And I remember I was dating a guy and he came in from work and he sat down on the couch and I’m making dinner and I’m making the kids lunches for the next day. Now I’ve worked all day. And run around with the kids who are, you know, and they’re like, I don’t know, eight and nine. So did that. And I’m wiped, right?

But I still have other work I have to get done and I’m cleaning the kitchen. And meanwhile, I remember he looked up from the couch. He goes, I’d unload the dishwasher, but I don’t know where they go. And I’m thinking, okay, you’ve been here for six months. This is not rocket science. You know, I was like, I’m like, I’m, I’m going to not come over and stab you.

Fortunately, I learned this from Al. I go this, it’s just a different need, you know, where, you know, where we, where I don’t have that need to go do this whole thing. I’m going to buzz around until I get all my stuff done. Otherwise it’s going to create so much anxiety and stress that I couldn’t possibly sit on the couch.

Right. So I think it’s recognizing what we need is such a. Key thing. And then kind of knowing that some people need that transition time from when they’re done working to, to, okay, now I’m shifting gears into, I’m, I’m relaxing.

Well, I’ve got a funny story to tell because actually it’s, it’s been through the counselling.

I think I knew this anyway, but it’s been through our counselling where I, if I was emotional about something, You know, if somebody was really bothering me, I’d just be like, right, I need to speak about it now. Like, I just need to speak about it, like, right now. In from that bucket. Yes, I just need to let it all blurt out.

And poor James would look up, because he was working at the time, I had absolutely no concept of where he was at, at all. He would look up the laptop like a frightened bunny, like a frightened rabbit, like, Oh my goodness, I don’t even know I’m in the middle of something. I don’t want to tell her to So, uh, yeah.

I know I’m, I’m a bit of a bugger off, but I don’t, I just know. So you just would look blank and then that wasn’t satisfying to me either. So now I actually say to him, cause it’s about respecting the other person’s time. I say to him, James, is it okay if I can talk to you right now? If it’s not, just let me know when I can speak to you.

And there’s that, yeah, there’s that mutual respect and I can hold it back. And have a proper conversation when

I’ve learned how to hold it in for a moment

for two minutes.

We’ve also learned guys that women just sometimes need to just dump the bucket and you don’t have to fix that. You just have to go, Oh wow, I am so sorry that happened.

We don’t want you to fix it. We just want you to know that it happened. And

yeah,

And this is so hard

to get the solution. We’re like, Oh, you’re giving me problems. I’ll give you the solution. But like, guys, women don’t want the solution. They just want you to go, Oh, okay.

Sincerely, though.

Yes.

Yeah. Yes, because we can tell, especially if we’re very menopausal.

We’re going to take you out otherwise. So I, um, I was on dating apps for years. I was laughed at. My husband was on a dating app for like five seconds. Maybe, I think maybe he was on for a couple of weeks, literally, and I was on for over a decade. And finally I realized towards the end of this dating app situation that I was approaching it all wrong.

And I’ve shifted my, my approach. And that’s how, and then I had friends help me cause I was also a bad picker and they found him. But what I would love to know from you is like dating app, what your thoughts are on dating apps. Um, and Tim is my perfect human, like he is my perfect partner, and there’s zero chance I ever would have met him.

So

what’s your thoughts? And if you are a fan, like, what would you, how would you?

Yeah, I’m probably the wrong person to ask because after my divorce, I went, I went through, like, first of all, I couldn’t believe it came very out of the blue for me. So my confidence was shot and I was completely out, out of dating for months.

But then I kind of dipped my toe in, then I got very excited about it all. Uh, I got on all the apps, but it was terrible. I was living in Ibiza at the time. It’s not a big island, but I got so lazy on it. You know, you’d like match with someone. They’d be like, come meet me in Ibiza, like 15 kilometers away.

And you’d be like, uh, You’re a lazy, you’re a

lazy.

I’m old fashioned. I mean, I, I just like meeting people out, out and about. So I didn’t, I didn’t have a great experience on dating apps, but you, you did like internet dating and dating apps for a while. I

had a good and bad. I’ve, here’s the thing. I, we know lots and lots and lots of people, you know, clients I’ve actually coached, you know, I’ve gone on to during our coaching time together, have had the courage to go on dating apps.

I’ve looked over their profile and we’ve kind of considered it and we’re like, yeah, that looks good. And then they’ve met amazing men and they’re still dating those amazing men. So I’ve seen the success stories over and over again of dating apps. I think, um, Bumble is a really popular one. That’s one that’s been quite successful because that’s the one that women are in control of, um, who can like them and all that kind of stuff.

But yeah, yeah. I think you

said something important there. You said, I looked over there, her profile. So, you know, I finally realized that my profile was my best, like, you know, I’m in marketing. I’m like, I’m going to write a sales letter. So. I find that, and I remember hearing this about men versus women in job interviews, is that men will, you know, present themselves in a job interview as like the greatest thing ever, and they’ll ask for more money, and they’ll blow up their accomplishments, and women will downplay, and they’ll ask for less money, and they’ll do these things.

And I have a feeling some of that shows up in dating apps as well. 100%. I know it certainly does in physical appearance. There was one dating app where it said, are you like, you know, athletic and toned? And, you know, do you like, think of yourself as average, good looking, very good looking or hot? And it’s like, every guy said they were hot.

And I’m like, and I meet guys who said they were athletic and toned. And I’m like, that’s not athletic and toned. Like, have you done any? Physical activity in the last decade? It doesn’t look like it.

This is the thing with the apps, right? You can, you can present the persona and have all that the touched up images, but don’t forget, you’re gonna have to meet in real life at some point.

Exactly. JJ, I have to tell you this. I was doing a coaching call with a group of women this morning. We were talking about this exact thing about, um, it was actually about, um, body confidence and, and, Um, body dysmorphia actually, and women, it was around kind of like self love and women are given pictures of all different shapes and sizes of pictures of women.

So from, you know, like a size 6 all the way up to, you know, like a size 24, 20. And, um, yeah. The women are asked, like, where do you, what do you think your body is most like represented in these photos? And pretty much every single woman, this is a body, a body of research that’s been done again recently, pretty much every woman pointed to two or three dress sizes bigger than they actually are.

Men, men, either said they were exactly as they were, or they said that they were hotter. So slimmer and fitter and hotter and then we were talking about how that translates into the working world. It does It’s kind of like oh, you know, oh, I shouldn’t ask for that. Oh my Experience doesn’t really relate to that.

So I won’t say that I could do that job Whereas men are just like yeah, I can do it all and I want to be paid double what I’m being paid right now

Exactly. So, so how would you, um, cause you said you looked at the profile, profile look good, what would you recommend? And I especially like to hear from James too, because you’re a guy, you know, um, what would you recommend for someone listening who wants to go out and start doing some online dating? What, what would be appealing on a,

So I’d say, um, Do think, right, do think about how you want to portray yourself, but don’t portray a false version of yourself because you’re going to get caught out, right?

So yeah, you know, make sure your photos do look good, obviously, but you don’t need to go and have a professional shoot and then have them touched up. That’s just going to lead to trouble down the line, but make sure they look decent. Um, I think be honest in your profile. Make sure you are sounding like, you know, someone would want to speak to you.

But I think the main thing is, and in my experience, dating apps don’t go in with hard and fast rules. Like we, we know what we like or we don’t like and, but I think so, so many times people have a checklist as they’re going through someone and they’re like, I think it’s become so disposable dating. It’s almost like, oh, well there’s two things on a checklist, don’t sound right.

So no, next one. Next one. You could be missing out on something. You know, when you meet that person, you might actually have more chemistry with them than it might appear from the app. So I’d say. It’s great to know what you want, but don’t be too rigid on those checklists when you’re looking for a partner.

So for the lady that, actually I’ve done it for two ladies, I mean, it’s not in my remit. I don’t know how I ended up looking at people’s posts. It’s very nice that they trusted me with it, but I think it was actually, It’s about having someone that you know. This is a really, really good thing to do. Having someone that you know.

I think this is why they chose me. They knew me in a working capacity. They knew me, I knew them deeply. You know, we’ve been coaching, I’ve been coaching them for a long time, but I’m not their friend at the same time. So show it to someone, if you can, that knows you But doesn’t almost like, he’s going to be biased, knows you too well, and just go, Oh yeah, that’s a great profile.

Yeah, of course they’re going to love you. And not give you a real honest, you know, download of what they think should go on there or not. But if you can get someone to look at it and just say, you know, be vulnerable and say, Is that a good representation of the person that you think I am? Is there anything that I could change?

I think having that outside influence is really handy. So for the two that I saw, I was like, you’re not being, you’re funny. You’re a funny person. You’ve got a great sense of humor. Like, just add some little twinkles of that in there as well. So, and then they both started dating.

Nice. Yeah. All right. Well, you guys have a midlife reset audit that you’re gonna be gifting to everybody and I’m gonna put it at jjvirgin.

com forward slash midlife reset. What is it exactly?

So it’s just a really short quiz effectively that you can take and it’s going to just highlight kind of where you are in your midlife and your understanding of your psychology, what your hormones are doing, how you should be nourishing your body, how you should be moving your body.

So you’ll get a personalized report at the end basically saying, okay, these are the areas where it’s great, these are the areas where maybe you could be doing some more work or looking for support. It’s just a really useful tool for getting a snapshot. of where you are at Midlife at the moment.

So that you can then look at where you want to be.

Exactly. My friend Mary Murphy says, what would you love? Because we get to design this, right? Exactly. Yes,

we do.

Fantastic. Okay, so again, that’ll be at jjvirgin. com forward slash midlife reset. And James and Claire, thank you so much for taking time out and hanging with me today. And hopefully we’ll get to hang out in Spain.

Yeah, that would be great. Let’s do that. Thank you so much, JJ. It’s been great.

It’s been a real pleasure. Thanks for having us.

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