ATHE_Transcript_Ep 617_Dr. Uma Naidoo
JJ Virgin: [00:00:00] I'm JJ Virgin, PhD dropout, sorry mom, turned four time New York Times best selling author. Yes, I'm a certified nutrition specialist, fitness hall of famer, and I speak at health conferences and trainings around the globe, but I'm driven by my insatiable curiosity and love of science to keep asking questions, digging for answers, and sharing the information I uncover with as many people as I can, and that's why I created the Well Beyond 40 Podcast.
To synthesize and simplify the science of health into actionable strategies to help you thrive. In each episode, we'll talk about what's working in the world of wellness, from personalized nutrition and healing your metabolism, to healthy aging and prescriptive fitness. Join me on the journey to better health, so you can love how you look and feel right now, and have the energy to play full out at 100.
I don't know about you, but One of the first [00:01:00] signs that I was going through perimenopause was just kind of not feeling great in my skin. And now, full disclosure for me, anxiety has been a part of my life up until three years ago when I found Dr. Joe Dispenza. So this is something I battled with from my early 20s.
I even went to a doctor in my early 20s, a pulmonologist, and I said, I think I have exercise induced asthma. And he goes, no, you have anxiety. And I remember back then they tried to put me on meds, which I hated the way they made me feel. So I just started doing diet exercise supplements, which worked well till things started going sideways with my hormones.
And then as I told Dr. Uma Naidoo in this interview, I said, then I just felt like I wanted to unzip my skin and get out and come back later. So we are going to be talking about that today. We're going to talk about how you can use nutritional psychiatry, and she's the pioneer in this, [00:02:00] to ease your anxiety.
Her new book is Calm Your Mind with Food. She is the founder of the first hospital based nutrition psychiatry service in the country. She's the director of nutritional and lifestyle psychiatry at Mass General Hospital. And she's on the faculty of Harvard Medical School. She's quite something here. And she also is the author of This is Your Brain on Food.
So we've had her on before doing that. We'll post that link to that show as well. And we will also post a link to some cool bonuses she's given you that go along with the book. And we'll post a link to both of her books. And with that, stay with me. I will bring on Dr. Uma Naidoo.
I still remember being in perimenopause and literally feeling like if I could have unzipped myself, stepped out, left the area, and come back in a couple of years, that would have been my choice. So I'm super [00:03:00] excited, Dr. Uma, that you have written this book, Calm Your Mind with Food, and are really addressing the whole anxiety thing that's, I mean, you're brave to do this, to take on anxiety at perimenopause and beyond, because holy spokes, who would have known?
So let's talk about like, are you the only nutritional psychiatrist out there?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: I think that it's a growing field, but I'm certainly leading the way in the U. S. I'm proud to do so, and, and happy to, you know, help educate more clinicians to use this, right, because we all know nutrition is so fundamental, but what we can.
JJ Virgin: In traditional medical practice, we just start using it. Which seems crazy. I still remember getting called from school when my kids were little. And I think Grant was maybe five and they said, come pick him up because he's climbing the walls. And I go, what, what happened? And it turned out he'd won some kind of contest and they gave him a pound bag of M& Ms.
I mean, who gives a five year old a pound bag of M& [00:04:00] Ms? I'm like, well, you keep them. I'll come back tomorrow. So, you know, this seems to me that this should be the foundational place to start, but let's talk about, because anxiety, I think something starts to happen as our hormones go sideways where you do feel like, I'd like to unzip myself and leave.
Is it common for people to start to have anxiety and different kinds of mood things happen who've never had it before in their life?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: I do see this a lot, and let's just start with the fact that anxiety disorders, as shown in several research studies, we know is the most common mental illness in the world.
So whether you're just feeling a little worried and stressed or whether you have full blown new onset anxiety because you're going through kind of hormonal changes and you're going through perimenopause, it could be any number of things. But then we also know, JJ, that, you know, after COVID, a great paper published in Lancet showed that The increase in anxiety disorders has been 25%.[00:05:00]
So through COVID and beyond, you know, I feel that COVID just uncovered the mental health crisis, but anxiety is really burgeoning forward. But I think the other thing for us to realize is that there are many people in the world who never see a mental health provider, but globally research has shown that about 70 percent of people with mental illness receive no treatment from a healthcare professional.
So when it comes to women, we know that women in general, when they see a provider, their conditions. And I think perimenopause and menopause is one of those really heightened phases. Where people are just, you know, given antidepressants or told, well, you need this for anxiety. And, you know, this is just part of what your body's going through.
With no understanding of either the psychology behind it, the physiology behind it, behind everything. I think it does come down to that very important gut brain connection in the gut [00:06:00] microbiome, because that also is a place where hormones are being produced, the seed of our sleep and circadian rhythm, vitamin production, and more immunity, mental health, and everything.
So If you know, it's understandable then, but you're going through these changes that you may have a different emotional outlook on life and many women experience it. So it's almost normal. It should be normalized amongst women who should actually, and I think women do try to empower each other around this because it's so dismissed by the medical community and separate to the fact that so much medical research is done mostly in men.
All I'm saying is that, you know, how can you comment on someone's State of the art menopause if you're not really doing the research in enough women. So there are a lot of complicated things in the medical system, but that's, you know, in part why we function in this integrative space where we are trying to use different pillars to bring forward a better health.
JJ Virgin: So beyond [00:07:00] anxiety, I mean, what are some of the other mental health issues that are going on at the time? And how does someone know they're, they're at a point where they should actually go get help?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: I think that's actually very key. One of the things I've seen a lot, JJ, has been just changes, fluctuations in mood.
Moods feeling like they're all over the place. You know, it's not necessarily a symptom of an illness versus just an overarching mood component to feeling highs and lows, along with all the physiological symptoms that your body is experiencing. It also could be new in someone who's not had those symptoms before.
And so understanding that, you know, if it's getting to the point where you're not sleeping, you're losing weight, you are not eating or the opposite, you, you can't put down food and all you can do is soothe yourself with food. But your mood is just not there and you're not able to function. That becomes significantly important in maybe seeking help, even from a [00:08:00] therapist, from a counselor, speaking to your OB, seeing if there's anything that needs to be done, and I'm not necessarily saying that it has to be a medication, just that you get it evaluated.
I think with anxiety, anxiety can take on many different shapes and forms. Anxiety can also be a positive. It can also help drive us to, you know, get better score results when we'd be pushing to study for that exam, but it also can be debilitating. And where it gets debilitating is when you need to seek help, because if you can't function because you're so panic stricken by your symptoms, your feelings, emotions, then you need someone to help counsel you through that and get you through.
JJ Virgin: It sounds like with, especially with this book, Calm Your Mind With Food, love this. That this actually should be part of what we all start to do as, as we start to go through perimenopause, just to see how much can be helped in that way. Like how big of an impact can you make by shifting your food? I think
Dr. Uma Naidoo: that [00:09:00] the impact can be monumental, and I'll tell you why.
I feel like, you know, our food system, industrialization, the way that crops have been farmed for the last century or longer, has really evolved and changed our food system. You know this from work that you've done. And our foods are really hijacked to be infused with lots of unhealthy ingredients that we don't even realize are there.
So, many Americans. Eating the standard American diet called sad diet for a reason. And I think the more times that we can just start to go back to eating whole foods, to really leaning into plants, different colors, the different nutrients, micronutrients, macronutrients, the healthy proteins, kind of a really built up nutritional psychiatry plate.
We're going to be moving in the direction of healing inflammation. We know that when we're in this phase of life of pain, menopause, menopause, that there may be many things working against us. Including the fact that our hormones are [00:10:00] changing. So just eating foods that fend off inflammation, that help dysbiosis of the gut.
I'm going to help you along a better path, even simple things like sipping on the right types of tea. I like passion flower and lavender and green tea, making sure that you're hydrated, adequately hydrated because dehydration can actually precipitate panic in some people. So those types of basic tenets of really good lifestyle measures.
Becomes so important. The other one is exercise and movement. You know, get those endorphins flowing, making sure that you're moving your body because what also shifts for women is the amount that they should be eating around menopause. You always want to be eating healthy, nutrient dense foods. But you may need to adjust what you're eating and the components of what you're eating as well.
JJ Virgin: So it seems like to me, you know, what I say when you're starting to go into perimenopause is you have no margin for error. You know, like the things you could do in your twenties and thirties, stay up [00:11:00] late, maybe drink too much. It's like, nope, those days that, that should sail. So because this is such a kind of normal issue to go through, it would seem like putting foundational processes, like great food in place would be a really smart thing to start with.
So, you know, how big of a difference can you make with these shifts that you talk about in your book?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: I think the shifts can be huge. Understanding that it's a marathon and not a sprint and that you want to not overwhelm yourself and start slowly and steadily to change towards healthy eating habits.
Most of the country, in fact, the Western diet, I would say, and the standard American diet, a sad diet as it's called, is what people are eating. But I think that if you're facing this phase of your life and you think you should be cleaning up your diet, it could be a very powerful thing to help heal sub inflammation, work off that dysbiosis and start to feel better.
So I think it's worth a try, leaning [00:12:00] into those anti inflammatory foods, you know, leaning into a plant rich diet, having healthy proteins. Whether that be, you know, chicken or salmon, whatever it is you choose. But with that overarching. Emphasis on a healthy plate more of the time than less of the time. A lot of people cannot do it 100 percent of the time.
So that's where it's important to understand that, you know, you are going through a difficult time. You're dealing with these changes in your body. You're not feeling yourself, as you said, you want to unzip yourself and leave and come back in two years. So I think just finding a way to be able to guide ourselves through this.
JJ Virgin: What I think is important here all along the way is, you know, don't fail because you're trying to be perfect. Hey, that's crazy. It's like, go for a B plus, A minus,
Dr. Uma Naidoo: right? Exactly. It's like, you know, if you're going to try to do this every single meal and you're running to an airport and you know, [00:13:00] you have a less healthy choice, it's, it's hard.
And I think you just have to kind of have grace with yourself and realize that you're healing your body by making these small and steady changes.
JJ Virgin: Well, what are some of those? Because you talked a little bit about, you know, our standard American diet, our SAD diet. I'll tell you what's so interesting is, you know, we are really careful about what we eat here.
We order in from ButcherBox, we buy organic. And yet every time, Uma, when I go to Europe, or. I'm like, okay, I was in Korea. I was in Bali. I was in Peru. I was in Italy. I feel entirely different. I'm sure this is how you're supposed to actually feel when you're eating great food. So how do you make the right shifts?
What are the things that you're talking about in your book? Walk us through some of those here. And I think that we have to be doubly careful here because we have such an issue with our food supply. We do
Dr. Uma Naidoo: have an issue with our food supply. And. You know, the best that we can do within [00:14:00] our food system is to order when, you know, you have access, order the organic products, get those products for regenerative farming, you know, try to get from fresh vegetables or farmer's market, try to get access if you can.
Moving in that direction is obviously going to help. I think that some of the biggest things that we want to pay attention to are micro and macro nutrients, which are just so often overlooked. You know, how often does your doctor, they may check a complete metabolic panel, but they're not necessarily wondering, are you deficient in magnesium, which, you know, is involved in about 600 biochemical reactions of the body involved with our enzymes.
And actually many Americans are deficient and therefore may worsen their anxiety. But another one that is often overlooked, especially in women, is iron. A very large percentage of women are iron deficient. And iron deficiency in children is associated in research with anxiety. So just checking for iron deficiency in these different age groups could be important and making sure that you either [00:15:00] find, you know, have your doctor prescribe a supplement for you based on what your level is, is really key.
So making sure that, you know, when we go into perimenopause, we're in this phase of life that we also, our body is going through one thing, but are we in terms of our Blood tests in terms of our blood panels. Are we okay? Is there anything that we need that can actually amp up and make us feel even better?
In the far northeast, people really do need to check their vitamin D levels because we know that many Americans who live in this area could be iron deficient, could be iron deficient, and vitamin D deficient. So it's just making sure that we walk ourselves through these important things and then find the easy go-to things that you can do.
Drinking water, exercising, drinking enough tea, so you are hydrated, you're fending off anxiety, leaning into those leafy green vegetables, leaning into plant rich foods. And, you know, getting the healthy proteins. I've heard a hundred times how when people travel, they feel so much better. And many feel it's [00:16:00] because for the most part, our food system is so wrecked.
JJ Virgin: So kind of knowing we have a wrecked food system, but we live here.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: Yes. We have to find the best choices.
JJ Virgin: What would be some of your biggest go to foods that you would have people
Dr. Uma Naidoo: do? So I want people to think about a nutritional psychiatry plate in the following way, you know, I love the fact that we talk about colors of the rainbow, but you know, honestly, that doesn't quite capture how beautiful fruits and vegetables are and how many nutrients they give us.
We have so many micronutrients right there. And I love to have people build on what I call a kaleidoscope salad and the recipes in the book, and the reason is that it. It brings in the different colors, but it's bringing the biodiversity of these different foods. It's helping your gut microbes. It's giving you 10, 12 vegetables at that sitting, and then you add on your different proteins, whatever it is that you prefer.[00:17:00]
You know, just a squeeze of lemon, a pinch of salt and pepper is all you need to make that a nourishing meal. So I want people to really lean into plants because the fiber, the phytonutrients from these actually build up your gut. Fend off inflammation. But they also metabolize more slowly in your body and by having your blood sugar on an even keel, you are generally and specifically just less anxious.
That's one big one. I also want people to think a little bit out of the box. There are supplements out there that can help anxiety. Ashwagandha has been used in Ayurvedic medicine for, you know, centuries and it's pretty bitter There's a good amount of evidence that supplemental ashwagandha can help anxiety, maybe something you want to check in with your provider about.
I'm a big fan of healing teas because it's something we often overlook in a food plan. You know, we drink our water and hopefully we're drinking enough, but the teas can be very calming. You know, a green tea has a little bit of a pick me up. With the [00:18:00] EGCG and the L theanine in the afternoon, but out that buzz that caffeine gives you.
So passionflower tea and lavender tea, these have a lot of good studies behind them in just calming your mind and keeping you soothed throughout the day. I personally think adding those to your regimen, and by the way, women in menopause, you know, you can have these iced. If you're having hot flashes and uncomfortable symptoms, you can make these iced and still enjoy them.
So it's a way to get through these times.
JJ Virgin: So in this like kind of nutritional prescription of which adding teas is part of it, how much tea a day would be like a minimum viable dose?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: So in my opinion, you know, this is really related to the caffeine and when they decaffeinated or not. Certainly the green tea usually has caffeine in it.
So I would say between just plain water and hydrating with that, and if you're having plain black teas of different kinds. I would say try to have your base be [00:19:00] the water and add in three to four cups of tea a day. Now if you drink coffee, you want to balance the amount of caffeine if you're having caffeine in any of those teas as well.
So that's important to keep in mind. Also, everyone is different, so I may be able to tolerate four cups and someone else may be able to only tolerate two. But these are just good solutions to keep sipping on something and keep us hydrated. Do
JJ Virgin: the teas that have been decaffeinated Have the same bioactives, the same phytonutrients, like, you know, let's say green tea and I'm one of those fast caffeine metabolizers.
Yay. But you know, I know people that if they have it past 8 a. m. they're in trouble. And so can you use a decaf one and still get the benefits? It's not the caffeine, right? Or is the processing to get the caffeine out?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: That's a great question. You should still be able to get the benefits because all they're removing is, is trying to reduce the caffeine, which, you know, you don't need more of if you've had a couple cups of coffee and you know, you've had [00:20:00] some tea.
So the polyphenols will still be there to help you and to give you the benefits.
JJ Virgin: What about, because I know that you're big on spices. What was interesting, I was talking to Deanna Minnick, who talks a lot about plant diversity in your diet. Yes. She wants you to get to, I think, 50 different things a week. She goes, don't worry. Spices count. I go, okay, so I have a , you say, but I love that you said, you know, you can do a kaleidoscope plate and have 12 different vegetables on there.
That's fantastic. Are there any spices in particular that can help with. The menopause symptoms or mood or whatever.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: So, you know, turmeric with a pinch of black pepper. I know that people heard about this, but it is, there's a lot of evidence around just being anti inflammatory. And I think that that could be extremely helpful.
I'd like to add turmeric with a pinch of black pepper. And the reason is. That you want to add that pinch of black pepper [00:21:00] because the pepperine and black pepper activates the curcumin and turmeric, which is the active ingredient and makes it about 2000 percent more bioavailable to the brain and body.
And it is I'd like to bring that up. I have a
JJ Virgin: quick question on that that I've never been able to get the answer to. From what I've heard, and maybe it's just the amount that does it by making your gut more permeable. Which would not be a good thing. So that's why that's my question, , is how does that do that?
And is it doing it in a way that we want to do it or not?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: My understanding of it is that it's being done in a positive way for us, but I'm certainly willing to review some of your search and get back to you on that.
JJ Virgin: I would love to know that one.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: I hadn't heard that, but I also think that you have to use ingredients, even spices that appeal to you.
And that make you feel good. And I know that there are studies, animal studies that look at, you know, I talk about turmeric all the time and I grew up eating it and [00:22:00] using it, but there are studies that it's implicated in the formation of bile acids, and that may not be helpful for certain people. So we always want to make sure we.
Our providers know what we're doing, that we know other medical conditions that we have, so I think you raise a good point. But in terms of spices, they have a very large anti inflammatory component. So talking about herbs and spices, I love, and going back to tea, I love adding fresh mint and lemon. You know, that's another really revitalizing tea that's natural and is giving you some good benefits.
And then capsaicin, so chili peppers, rosemary, thyme, there are also Certain spices that are rich in ltil, an antioxidant, which Fs off brain fog, which I think is very relevant to what we are talking about because people just feel so off the game and like they can't enjoy things. They don't feel good. But things like Mexican oregano, parsley, thy mixed peppers, pepper, all, all these have.[00:23:00]
And there are several more that actually over time can help you with brain fog as well.
JJ Virgin: So the gut, you know, we know hormones change during menopause, but what's going on with the gut? Are there changes that are happening during menopause in the gut as well, or is it secondary?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: So the gut is evolving all of the time.
And I don't know if we know whether it's primary or secondary because, you know, hormones are produced in the gut. And vitamin production also occurs in the gut. So the gut is still this big hub where lots of stuff happens. In relation to menopause, it would be, I think, would be hard to tease apart. But I think what we want to do is make sure that we are attending to our gut health.
So we are making sure that we are fending off that inflammation, because that's only going to worsen. All of the symptoms of perimenopause, and that's tends to be how I, I try to think about it. So what
JJ Virgin: about this lot of talk lately about the [00:24:00] vagus nerve, you know, I'd love to kind of talk about first of all, what it is, what it does, its impact in anxiety and what we can do with that in terms of diet and lifestyle.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: The vagus nerve is the connector. The gut and brain originate from the exact same cells in the human embryo. They form two organs. That are quite far apart in the body, but they remain anatomically connected by the vagus nerve, which is our 10th cranial nerve. And the, one of the biggest and most important things that it does is it allows for two way messaging between these two organ systems, and they're really communicating about neurotransmitters.
So it's really quite critical. Vagus nerve is also the wandering nerve. So it's part of the enteric nervous system and it kind of goes to many, many different places in the body. So it's a powerful nerve. So I've seen things like fragrances and oils that people could apply to their wrist or sniff or spray on their pillow that will help almost create a [00:25:00] calming effect for them, a centering effect to, you know, cold plunges and other mechanisms that may be impact.
They have more of a centering and calming effect for people as well as other health benefits. So I think that the more we study it, the more we understand it's something that we can use to our best benefit. And of course it's intricately related to the gut microbiome and the digestive tract.
So
JJ Virgin: cold plunging would help. We just Cold plunging would help. We actually had to move our cold plunge inside because we couldn't get it cold enough here in Florida. I was like, it's great. It's perfect. I thought I was doing great at 50 and now we're going down to 40. I'm like, oh boy, but we're going to do it back and forth between the sauna, which is exciting.
So again, we, we talked about when you leave the States and all of a sudden you feel so much better eating the foods that you avoid in the States. Things like bread and pasta.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: I've even had people tell me that they can't eat bread in the United States, but they [00:26:00] can eat it in certain parts of Europe. So
JJ Virgin: I can, it's definitely, I
Dr. Uma Naidoo: agree.
And I feel it's how the wheat is grown, the grains are grown, how the farming is done. It's entirely different.
JJ Virgin: So there's another piece to it. And it was fun this summer, we went to Bali on a pilgrimage. And so we decided to stop off in South Korea pre and post. And, you know, every time you sit down to a meal in South Korea, you get all this pickled stuff.
Now, I'm like Tom Hanks in Big when he bit into that corn and spit. Like, I'm like, Oh, Ooh, Ooh. And I wish I, I'm really trying to work on it. However, it seems to me like with so many of these other cultures besides ours, they have these things built into their culture. Are there some things like that, that we'd want to be looking at pulling into our diet to help us through this?
Dr. Uma Naidoo: You know, and a lot of those pickles in Korean foods and in those [00:27:00] types of countries and other countries, almost all countries and cultures have fermented foods. And some of those pickles are unusual foods, unusual meats and fish and different things, but they're also using a process which, you know, maybe fermentation.
The reason that that's super helpful to us is eating fermented foods and research has shown this a really important study published in Cell in 2021 from a research group in Stanford showed that eating fermented foods reduces inflammation, especially in the gut. Even if we get used to one at a time, it, it's definitely acquiring a taste to it unless you grow up eating it and you get used to it.
Some that are my favorites are things like miso. So Miso case, I do a recipe for my first book with miso glaze Sweet Potatoes, you know, so a healthy Coptic carbohydrate, but using the miso a way that when it's cooked, it's really super delicious. I like things [00:28:00] like kefir, kombucha. I like pickles and like sauerkraut, but you have to have a acquired taste for it.
Kimchi is another one.
JJ Virgin: Yes, it is, it is,
Dr. Uma Naidoo: but because you, it's not from
JJ Virgin: I think we've really done a disservice in the U. S. cause if we'd been raised with this, I think we'd be in an entirely different. Situation. Like it's hard as an adult to get confronted. I'm going to call it that with chim chee.
That's like, Oh,
Dr. Uma Naidoo: it's definitely the quiet tasting. So having little bits at a time or finding one of the flavors that appeals to you, I think becomes
JJ Virgin: key. So that would be an important, like, if I'm looking at what are the things we really want to think about, including here, it would be getting that diversity, getting in teas, fermented foods.
Spices and that fiber and protein rich foods. Did I miss anything key here? I, well, we didn't really talk about [00:29:00] fats.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: We didn't talk about that. So what I do in the book is I outline, you know, take you through the signs that end up when you design a grocery list for you of things you want to check off and try to build your cart.
And then the recipe is assigned with that in a protocol. So, I think with healthy fats, it's so key to have the avocado, the olive oil, you know, the salmon with the omega 3 fats that you need, the hemp seeds, flax seeds, all of these just build up those reserves of the right types of fat that we want to make money.
So adding them in is key. The whole nutritional psychiatry plate is all of the food, right? I think that one of the things I try as much as possible is to be inclusive, but have the healthiest versions of those foods. And if someone doesn't eat a certain food group or food type, they don't have to, but they can substitute it with something else.
JJ Virgin: So walk me through a typical day of what your plate looks
Dr. Uma Naidoo: like. Well, I'll tell you about my [00:30:00] Kaleidascope salad because I actually designed it and tested it for this book and it's one of my favorites. So, you know, I, morning I'm usually sort of something that's easy, quick. What time do you wake up? I wake up around five.
So you wake up around 5. Oh, pretty, pretty naturally. Yeah. Pretty naturally. And I eat, I would say closer to 8. So I've had water and I've had coffee and I've been busy in between that time. Sometimes I don't feel hungry and then I go with intuitive eating and will eat when I'm ready to have breakfast.
And usually that's something that I can make chia pudding. Which is also, also rich in fiber and protein for me. And then I love to build a salad, you know, with all of the different leafy greens that I can find. I like to go off the beaten path with leafy greens. I like things like dandelion greens and watercress when I can get them.
They just add more interesting flavors and textures to everything. And then lots of different colors that I just try to build in as many as I can. And for me, a lot of plant based proteins, [00:31:00] so legumes, truffle and that type of stuff. But to someone else, you know, it could be salmon, chicken. It could be many different great proteins.
I love to have a piece of avocado with that. And then dinner is where, for this book, I also tested what I call Mediterranean recipes. So bringing in. Mediterranean foods, but also some Asian flavors and spices and ingredients. And that just makes the food more interesting, but you can still have something that's super delicious, but flavorful and healthy.
JJ Virgin: I'm trying to think of, I think Will Lee called it, did a Mediterranean thing too. Cause you know, he's Chinese and he did a whole cooking tour through Italy. And I'm like, really, when you look at it, those are like the two best cuisines.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: Yes, they really are. And it's interesting because the history of sort of Mediterranean recipes, it comes from someone who initially tried to do a combination of Japanese food and Mediterranean, but you know, for me, it was really as with him, I'm sure just bringing in those spices and those [00:32:00] flavors.
And I, at first, was brought to my attention by a very smart medical student when I was teaching before COVID who said to me, you know, I don't understand Dr. Naidoo,, all of you teach us about Mediterranean diet and this was a young Asian woman. And she said, you know, but my culture, those are not the vegetables we eat.
So we need to make this more adaptable. And it really got me thinking about how do I convey that message to patients of different cultures and their families? You know, how do you make it accessible in one way through the spices and adding in those different vegetables, but still making, you know, you'll talk about black beans in certain countries and you'll talk about chickpeas in other countries.
So.
JJ Virgin: Yeah, I love that. I have another friend, I think, you know, Dr. Beverly Yates, who was working on culturally specific recipes for blood sugar because, you know, she does a lot of work in the African American community and it was like a completely, you know, she was missing, she would do really cool dishes that were more culturally relevant.
[00:33:00] It's like a whole area that's kind of missed that should be addressed.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: It should be addressed because you don't have to take a person out of their culture to make them eat healthy. You can adapt what they're eating in a way that it's, it's going to work better.
JJ Virgin: Well, in general, like until their cultural eating got Westernized, it was probably just fine.
It's
Dr. Uma Naidoo: probably much better. Unless great grandpa and great grandma, it's just fine. They would, they were not overweight and
JJ Virgin: they had healthier lives. Exactly. All right. Well, this book is fantastic. I'm excited that it's coming out and I wish it had been here 10 years ago, darn it. And again, it is Calm Your Mind with Food.
It is a great companion to your first book. This is Your Brain on Food. When you go to get this, we're also going to have on our website, we'll put the link with the show notes at jjvirgin.com/UMA . And I know also we'll have a link to some bonus material you put together as well. So you get some goodies in there.
And I think of extreme [00:34:00] excitement is the idea of this anti anxiety food shopping list and your kaleidoscope salad. I'm excited for it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all the work you're doing getting this. To me, nutritional psychiatry is about as obvious as it comes and,
Dr. Uma Naidoo: you know.
JJ Virgin: So thank you for being a pioneer in what should be the first thing that we do with it.
Dr. Uma Naidoo: Thank you, JJ. Always fantastic to connect with you.
JJ Virgin: Be sure to join me next time for more tools, tips, and techniques you can incorporate into everyday life to ensure you look and feel great. And more importantly, that you're built to last. And check me out on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. And my website, jjvirgin. com and make sure to follow my podcast. So you don't miss a single episode at subscribetojj.com. See you next time.[00:35:00]
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